A scary article
 

I was paging through the sun on sunday and I came across this article:
Toy Spurs Police Raid

This got me thinking what's stopping the police from entering your house and taking you $500 airsoft gun in a similar situation? Does anyone here take precautions against this sort of thing or do they just hope for the best?



P.S. I don't know if this was already posted, if it was I'll remove it

Keep it all in a gun safe, keep the gun safe locked and shut, put the safe in an out of site area of the house making sure its' not by your phone or cable box etc. Only carry them out and in while in cases.

Store them like the real thing and you won't have strangers dropping the dime on you.

proper storage then you wouldnt have to worry

"red laser scope rifle"
lol

It's honestly pretty sad that in today's society we need to "properly store" cap guns, etc.

I can see it being required for airsoft for obvious reasons, but lets get serious - a cap gun from the dollar store?

Well, I guess with all the school shootings in the past, as well as society's general outlook that "guns are bad", its not surprising that this would happen. I mean, paranoid neighbours see you carrying around what, to them, looks to be a real rifle, they have no way of knowing its not in fact real, so they assume the worst.

Christ. I live in a complex and there are so many kids running around with cap/dart guns it's insane, police would have a carnival if they really wanted to.

I guess it's partially the person holding the cap/dart gun. (sort of)

If I was to dress in all camo and carry around a few cap guns with an older friend, we'd probably have the cops eventually called on us.

Where as young kids, it's not really cared about.

I think some adults frown very much at us 'big kids' with our toy guns, yet want their young kids to have the fun of cops and robbers the parents did way back when.

Damn confuzing if you ask me.

Exactly, we live in a paranoid society today where people don't know how to mind their own business and at the first sign of "threat" they panic. They're the same type who call the police if someone bikes on the sidewalk in a suburb.

atleast he only bought it at dollarama...

But seriously this is why you shouldn't plinker in your backyard, but if you are going too make sure you have an orange tip so it can be distinguished.

I've had neighbors look at me funny when they see me shooting bottles and boxes in my backyard. After that I've reduced myself to shooting only in my room or basement.

i personally still dont understand what is stopping an asshole cop from taking away my airsoft stuff and not giving it back using the excuse that it is a replica.

So what happens if you legally owned a gun, had it dissassembled on the table to clean it, and someone called the cops because they saw it for some reason? Could the cops come in with a warrent and sieze it?

The law is stopping "some asshole cop" from taking away your AS stuff.

1. possession of replicas is 100% legal

2.unless they get a complaint.. or have probable cause to search they can not enter your home without an invitation.

3. stored properly out of sight will virtually eliminate any issues.

In the story cited.. police received a "gun call"

the technician saw what appeared to be a loaded handgun sitting on a shelf in the guy's apartment. He was justified to make the call to police and the police response was justified.

the owner was not charged as no offense had been commited.

This is why you must responsibly store and handle your AS guns.. all the time. Anyone seeing you through your window "fiddling" with your M4 or polishing your glock slide could misidentify these articles as guns and call police. then you very well could end up searched and it all seized.

No as you could show your legal ownership.. they could come over , break down your door, handcuff you and have you explain yourself from a face down on ther floor position..

So that is why most responsible gun owners don't have people they don't know observe anything to do with guns in their homes.

Bull. Sorry man but that's a load of crap.

That guy had no business calling anyone because he saw what he "thought" was a firearm.

Even if it was a real firearm, it's none of his business. There is nothing stopping a legal owner from having a loaded firearm in residence.


Again, I gotta call bullshit man.

I clean all my firearms on my FRONT DECK in the summer time. Sometime after having guests to the range there are 3 or 4 of us out there cleaning away.

I'm on my property, abiding by the law. My neighbors are aware of what I do, because I let them know in person with a chat.

But to say I can't clean my guns on my front deck because someone might drive or jog by and see "and evil firearm" and call the COPS?

Let them call. I look forward to having a conversation with the local COPS about what I can do on my own property.

No one said he had any business doing it... but he did.. and the cops responded. That is a fact.

Sure it was harmless.. sure most people would go. Meh.. toy gun who cares..

but this "technician" obviously was clueless.. and called the cops.. Likely saying.. "the guy had guns laying all around his apartment"

A responsible legal gun owner would not leave a loaded hangun sitting on a bookshelf.. for any random person to see..


What you do on your deck in "the Wik" is your business.. but I know for a fact .. in my neighborhood.. If I cleaned what looked like a gun on my front porch I'd have a visit from ETF in short order.. But then there is a shooting within 1 km of my home EVERY WEEK and gun calls within 2 KM of my home EVERY DAY.. I had the ETF assault my old apartment buliding 2 times in one week due to gun calls.. because some one saw someone acting suspicious and holding what "may have been a gun" ( ive since moved.. but still live within 3 KM of that place)

It may very well be my right to clean my gun anywhere I want to on my property.. but there is a difference between rights to behavior and prudent behavior.. Personaly I'd rather not have to explain myself to heavily armed police while my neighbors look on.

You and I live about what 45 minutes apart in distance.. but worlds away in public perception of firearms.

And worlds away in police response to firearms.. your local Cops likely know who you are.. and what you do.

My local cops presume the worst.. and react like their lives are at risk ( because they are )

there is a big gap what should happen and what does.. it ain't BS its fact

I disagree.

You are not being prudent. You are giving in to the rampant retardation that is overcoming our society.

We are learning to live in fear as gun owners, and to give up our rights because of public fear mongering.

Let them come. I've done nothing wrong, and while I feel for the police who are basically caught in the middle, I won't give up my freedom or see it eroded because I have to worry or cow tow to those who are ignorant of firearms.

Do what you need to. I understand that.

But don't try to convince me you aren't giving in and rolling over. That, my friend, is BS.

*EDIT - Don't think I get off easy cause I live up here. We have one of the highest violent crime rates outside of Toronto.

This story is quite similar to mine.

The point is there are not many people who has knowledge about firearm or whatever.

I remember like a year ago while I was at my old apartment. We got bored and took some picture of me dress like SWAT team and put on facebook. I'm just put without notify but I put a big note that it's airsoft or airgun to people to knowledge what it is.

Two day, I got a call from a detective who is review on my case while I was was school, demand to meet me at the cafeteria. They told me that They would have knock in my house if I didn't receive another call.

So after 1 hours of explanation and etc.... , they apologized for my time and my case will be close.

I got back home, my friend told me that there are like 3 or 4 police car and also a load of SWAT team in front of the apartment waiting for something while I was at school. I just like WTF !!! also two hot detective get in my room and searching all my gun and asking my info, my buddy's info.

After a few day, I found out call who report to 911. My school director report to 911 because she got a call from student's parents told her that there is a student in her school took picture with a gun also I found out how the heck student's parents found out those picture as well because on of my friend on facebook check out my new picture and forgot to close the browser and their parents using the computer after that.


I didn't get any charge . They just told me to remove the picture on facebook and demand to took my toys from me but I demand to ask them pay me if they want to take it to destroy or whatever they want but after told me how much they all cost ? they just pull back. I told them that I bought those toys are in legal position so they have no right to take it away from me unless they pay me.

I never have any problem hanging all my gun on my wall while the internet technician came in to connect internet plus he ask my permission to handle it and he is so happy and want to get one as well.

Closest thing I've left out while anyone came in to fix stuff has been my CF tac vest and helmet. He just told me it was cool looking stuff and wanted to know where I got it, etc. Was pretty interested in the whole army deal, so I doubt he would have reacted like this fello did if my airsoft guns had been out.

OK.. yes That I can agree with.. you're right

I look at it as "adapting to" the realities of the situation.. but that is really just trying to justify behavior that is being forced by public pressure... so yeah there is some rolling over going on... Thanks for pointing it out..

So rather than exercise my legal rights.. I bow to the pressure..

and you are right.. No one should have to behave that way .. particularly if they have complied with all of the rules in place.

I applaud your stance. I just don't think it one I would personaly adopt.

I prefer to be localy discreet, if publically vocal..

I don't agree with the way the media has twisted the image of legal gun ownership.... But I recognize that it IS twisted..

My first wife.. forced me to get rid of all my firearms.. and I had some pieces.. that would be grandfathered prohibited today...its a F'n shame.

My Current wife is Keen on getting her R-PAL and buying "lots of guns" so things are looking up.

All I can say is.. I still don"t think Ill be swabbing barrels on my front porch.. even if I could.

Yes the rules are situational.

The guy who lives on a ranch up North can drive around with a loaded up gun rack in his truck and never cause a stir.

The guy that lives in a condo in Montreal can't sit in common room with his team cleaning weapons, real or fake witout have the SWATs turn up to kick in the door.

If someone gets too pedantic about the rules you'd never be able to clean a rifle. Since you have to treat every weapon as if it was loaded, you can't clean a loaded weapon.

There is possibility society's fear of firearms is a figment of our overactive imaginations; a product of national obsession fueled by negative propaganda set in motion by the media. Guns on their own don't hurt anyone.

More people die in Canada in car accidents [Canadian Mortality Data Base in co-operation with Stats Canada] with a statistic of 9 per 100,000 population. In 2002, 5 deaths per 1,000,000 occurred as result of firearm user accidents or crimes.

Ban Cars!

Yah well I don't have kids either. I might think twice about having cops show up at my house with guns drawn if I had children...

But then again :D

so every time one person die from result of firearm user accidents or crimes. 18 people die in car accident, and people has issue with guns when they should be more concern about car safety.

thank you for the clarification! i really appreciate it! the first point is what i was confused about, i didn't know it was 100% legal. and just as a point of clarification so no one takes what i said the wrong way, i am in no way saying all cops are assholes (rather i have a lot of respect for them), i was merely saying that as im sure there are (as in any profession), people who mis-represent their profession. they of course, only make up a small minority of the whole :)

EDIT: for the second bolded point, if replicas are 100% legal to own, then why would they get seized if my house is searched?

Exactly.

There is no obvious reason (I wasn't there and am going on what the article says) that gun should have been taken away from him. It's another situation where folks don't know their rights and the law takes advantage of that.

KNOW WHAT YOU ARE GETTING INTO. THE RESPONSIBILITY IS YOURS, NOT THE POLICE OFFICERS.

They simply cannot be up to speed on every law they have to enforce, so they use their own PERSONAL judgment unless it can be proven otherwise. They can't be blamed for that.

Stand up for yourself, be polite, and show them the confidence that comes from knowing what you are talking about.

Society is disgustingly pussified, but it's still on a case by case basis.

The cops here have been pretty cool about airsoft for the most part.

When my house was robbed back in '05 I had my collection including a loaded G36 and Mac11 laying around in my room. When the cops came to do a search-around, they stumbled upon them and there was no issue. They weren't even touched.

Case by case, though rarely in our favour I guess.

Indeed... the police for the most part are not 100% sure of their limitations or responsiblities..

One could respond to a call .. see they are "toys" and apoligize for the intrusion.. another would take a whole different tact.. cuff you.. and seize everything .. then you have to explain why you should get it back..

remember... the judiciary presumes you are innocent until proven guilty.. the police presume you are guilty until proven innocent.. its the two sides of the crime and punishment coin..

Cops arrest and charge because they "believe" a crime was committed.. they could be wrong about what is a crime... they could be wrong about what constitutes evidence..

If they are wrong.. they drop the charges.. and release the evidence..

In many cases where people say the police "seized" something.. they don't remember the police asking if they can take it.. if you "surrender" something to the police.. you should not presume they will give it back.

I was just checking on the status of my rpal on the cfc website and stumbled onto http://www.cfc-cafc.gc.ca/factsheets/default_e.asp

now the guys who've been around here a while know this I'm sure but as I read through the link for replica's and airguns, it states that replica airsoft is legal to own if you were in possession prior to 98 however you aren't aloud to acquire or import.

is this the loophole? I know it's n00b

If I was the homeowner in this instance, I'd be dropping a hefty suit on the local police department, the jerk who came in on the repair call, and the company he works for.

Guns aren't illegal to own, full stop. Restricted, yes. Illegal, no.

If I have one of my legally owned firearms in clear view in my house, while I am in the residence, it's perfectly legal. It's neither in storage, nor in transport, and is effectively under my control. If some asshole can come in and call the cops, who respond by breaking down the door without so much as a follow-up to the initial complaint, what law has been broken to justify the breach of this individual's charter right to security of the person and freedom from unreasonable search and seizure? The answer is none.

Furthermore, the police have zero grounds to confiscate the item as it is neither restricted nor prohibited, was not used in the commission of an offense, and was misidentified by a third party.

Imagine some kid walks by your window and says "Hey, that 60" TV looks just like the one my buddy had stolen!". He calls the cops, the cops come in, you show receipts clearly identifying the item as belonging to you, but the police take the TV and walk away with it. Of course this wouldn't happen, because a TV isn't a fucking gun. Why is it acceptable to seize ANY property where it is in fact legally owned and no law has been broken?

And, predictably, the media won't touch this. It was a firearms call, and that outweighs everything. It's perfectly acceptable to violate someone's rights if there's a gun involved, legally owned, replica, imitation, or otherwise.

Sorry, there's another glaring point in this whole scenario. How exactly can you tell a firearm is loaded if it's sitting on a counter? That's why we have ACTS & PROVE.

At the end of the day, the ruling will be that all parties involved were acting "in good faith". Doesn't make it right.

Well of COURSE! It's a GUN!

/crazy tone of voice

If a weapon is un-attended on a counter you follow rule one; Treat every gun as if it were loaded.

Obviously the article has some holes that will most likely never be fleshed out. Even though the general public is not in the know on firearms I'd guess that call was made to the police as a result of a conflict with the tenant. Since none of us were there we can't say for sure what went down but the most logical step would be that this was not a call made for the good of the community but a stab in the back. Maybe deserved, maybe not.

Once the police were there and had verified it was only a toy they would have quizzed the tenant somewhat along these lines. Why do you have that? No reason. What are you going to do with it? Nothing, it's just there. After that type of exchange they'd have suggested that they take it along to prevent another false alarm.

I don't think the point of this thread should be to discuss the right and wrong of the police or society's phobia of weapons. There's thread after thread of that already on here.

I think we should keep this on topic of reasonable steps that members here can take to store and transport their gear so they are not on the receiving end of a situation like this.

Of course. But you don't make a statement via a call to the police that there's a loaded gun on the counter. It's no different than calling in a bomb threat.

"There's a bomb in your house"
"Really?"
"Oh yes. I saw it".
"You saw a bomb?"
"Well...no"
"Well, how do you know there's a bomb in my house?"
"How do I know there isn't?!?"
*police knocking on door*

Then the individual who made the call should be charged for Mischief.

The false alarm shouldn't have happened in the first place. There's no grounds to seize an item that is not illegal, where no crime was committed.

If your fire alarm goes off and the fire department shows up, they don't take away your smoke detector to prevent false alarms.

I think the point of this thread is to illustrate how easy it is to have your rights abused simply because somebody tells the police you have an object in your house.

In my experience, "Reasonable Probably Grounds" needs a little more backing than a call from a technician who claims he saw something in your residence, particularly where the item seen, in and of itself, is not illegal to own. I suppose they checked the registry, saw that there was no record of restricted firearms at the residence and the homeowner has no valid RPAL, and raided the place based on that.

Pretty pitiful.

You'd have to prove the intent to charge the caller with mischief, unless there was a pattern of fake calls that'd be tough to do.

Can't say about fire alarms but I know out in Vancouver if you have too many false alarms with your entry system you'll loose your permit and be fined.

Right now out West they're executing tons of warrants looking for grow ops in folk's houses. Along with the Police there are city bylaw folks. They gain entry, see there's no operation in the place but instead of leaving they proceed to search for building code infractions and if they find any they slap a vacate order on the place. That seems more draconian to me than this incident.

Not at all. If it's obviously a toy gun, the caller ought to have known his actions would unnecessarily "obstruct, interrupt or interfere with any person in the lawful use, enjoyment or operation of property."

Whether he did or did not know is irrelevant. A reasonable person should be able to gauge the implication of their actions in this regard, and that's how the law should look at it; if it were anything other than a firearms issue.


Yes, you'll be fined and the fire department will no longer respond to alarms without secondary confirmation. That's not the same as pulling out your fire protection system. Regardless, it's metaphorical; no person should have to surrender property that is lawfully theirs, particularly where no real offense took place and there is no lawful grounds to call for its surrender.

I'm going to guess that you don't own firearms. If you did, you might find this incident a little more significant.

Let me put it this way - forget for a moment that a toy gun was involved; if you own something, lawfully, and the act of owning the article is not itself illegal, what business does law enforcement have to enter your premises, based on heresy evidence of a third party that your property simply exists, and then seize that legally owned property?

Owning a gun is not illegal. Owning a toy gun is not illegal. Owning a replica firearm is not illegal. Leaving a gun, real or otherwise, on a shelf when you are present in the home is not illegal. So WHY DID THE POLICE INVADE THIS PERSON'S HOME?

What law was potentially being violated that justified a search and seizure in the pursuance of fundamental justice as per section 8 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms?

Like I stated before, my reasons for posting here is to deal with the storage and transport issues that some members might come encounter.

Personally I live in a place where guns are not demonized, and you can toss your gear into the box of a pickup, drive to a game stop for gas in BDUs and not have an eyebrow raised.

I am also aware that generalizing from self isn't going to help the members here that live in urban settings, rent houses or apartments and can have uninvited or unexpected guests enter their homes. Those are the people who should take reasonable precautions against becoming a target of this sort of action.

And no I do not think the Police should be able to kick in doors based on vague tips, but given the current climate in society I can't see that being a popular platform to run for office on.

so pretty much what I'm getting here, is if I want to take it out I should lock my doors and close my blinds just like the other stuff I take out in my room. (Sorry for the inappropriate joke)

Is there anything about gun displays? I have a friend that has her hunting license and she says that they used to be able to have their guns on display in a locked case, I'm thinking about doing the same. Have then gun in a plexiglass case, mags seperatly with a trigger lock on the gun.

I'm going to ask my uncle who's a sergeant in the police about this next time I see him, so I can get some clarification.

They're toys, so there's no rule against displaying them. The point has been made however that you should treat them like real firearms, stored safely out of view.

Why display something that will only increase the likelihood of leading to a break and enter and theft of those items?

Why have a big tv or a fancy car? there going to increase you chance of break-ins too.

I'm not worried about that however, I'm worried about the police having an issue with it being "improperly stored" and I want to display it because A) I think it looks nice and B) And depending on the gun (a M1911 in this case) is a work of art as you can see with RacingManiacs, so thus I'm going to display it.

You asked for an opinion. I've been in this game since you were FOUR YEARS OLD. If you want to discard the advice that's being given, go for it.

If your TV was a fucking GUN I wouldn't display my TV either, but it's not a TV, we're not talking about televisions, and we're talking about GUNS. Realistic, one to one replicas of automatic handguns and rifles.

Possession of replicas is not illegal. There are no laws governing their storage.

Displaying them makes them an obvious target. People talk, and this may lead to your house being targeted by criminals looking to steal your replica firearms. You trust your family, and you trust your friends. But do you trust your friend's friends or your family's friends?

A news article airing on television describing the theft of "dozens of replica firearms" will not air in our favor.

So ultimately, do whatever you want but dont come bitching and whining here if and when your prized toy gets stolen.

Lastly, you're a MINOR, and you shouldn't have the fucking thing in the first place. So really, its likely not YOUR house, not YOUR belongings that would be affected by a B&E, and you should check with your PARENTS to see how they feel about it.

QFT. I agree 100%

Sorry about all that, I meant that I am planning on doing that in the future. So in fact, no, I do not own an airsoft gun, and yes, I do live with a parent and they are fine with it as long as I store them properly. So thus, I want to find out how people store theirs. I'm not ignoring what you said, I agree that they should be stored properly, but they can also be displayed properly too, ie: away from windows in a locked case and put away when anyone un-trustworthy comes over.

I'm not trying to patronize you but I just don't believe that it's going to cause someone to break into my house.

Just a last thing, I'm sorry I misspoke before, I was just trying to show my point, lets just drop it and forget about it.

Alright, so if I were to do drills with my AEG in my room and that a neighbor decides to look into my house by the window and sees my AEG, my house could be stormed? Ouch. I mean, that's sure nobody should to it in an highly windowed area to be safe, but still it's kinda... stressing.

The problem with keeping them on display at least for airsoft is that they look real. And if I have an AK 47 or a M4 with a 203 on it, people will not know its an replica. They will think " oh no there is a killer with automatic weapons and is planning a school shooting." People are absolutely correct to call police when they believe a crime is being committed, in fact they are obliged to or else they themselves are commiting a crime. Its up to owners to be responsible about how they store and diplay firearms or even toys that look like firearms.

Yep this is especially true when technicians are entering your condos/apartment to do filter changes/dryer vent cleanings.