Heavy Bastards
 

I would like to know the interest of the player on if we could bring in .36 and
.40 bb's .

Large ouch factor!

8mm or 6mm BB's ?

8mm in .36!

6 mm

Would love to see them in .36's, especially if they can be made to high consistency standards.

(Although a .34 would be nice to try)

That's a featherweight, even 8mm in .46g feel really light compared to the 6mm in 0.43g.

I'd love to use heavier BBs, but price becomes an issue at that point unless you're a sniper and only fire a few rounds per game. I use .28s in my AEGs, but only use .3s in my GBBs because of their substantially higher cost. I've tried .3s in my AEGs, and the resulting flight path is substantially more stable and consistent, but the cost is also significantly higher. For me, the liberal application of fire with .3s gets really expensive really fast. This may not be an issue for everyone, but I'm sure it is for many.

I'm not looking to start loading cannon balls into my shotgun. Besides, the lighter weight gives it a more inconsistent pattern closer resembling a real shotgun spread.

i would be happier if they got rid of the .2 and .3 entirely and replaced the .3 with something heavy such as a .34 or .36. the reason being, is that .3 are very expensive for what you get. .28 in terms of how they shoot vs. price vs. quantity is a really good buy. .30g bbb are used primarily for special guns, such as snipers and such. so, if only they spend the money on heavy weight bbs, why not bring in heavier weight? as for the removal of .2s, the only reason why i would ever use them is to chrono something. even CQB i would use .25s just to have a more stable flight path.

if you're to remove .2's altogether, unlikely, then why would you need them to chrony? just change your FPS limits to reflect .25's or heavier to keep it safe.

.20's and .25's are my biggest sellers by a far margin this year. I am going to see what kind of deal I can get but I might do .36 and .40 on a preorder basis - would people go for that? If I did it as a preorder I'd do special pricing on it.

i use .28 and love them, helps to push through bush, but if you can help keep the price down reasonablely, i would definately switch heavier

You just picked them up from me yesterday, you haven't even used them in a game.

i know i would do a preorder. the heavier the better. my eventual Tanaka Kar98k shoots 377 with .3 on a nice day. with .34-.36 i am hoping for it to shoot around 330ish. With bbs of that weight traveling at that speed, i will have a great sniper's/WWII rifle.

0.36g with no teflon = WIN WIN WIN!!
0.40g for those special place with special rifle...

I'd buy 2 bag of 0.36g and one of 0.40g right now!

0.30g is the best all around BB for sniping, but there is room for heavyer BBs where higher FPS are allowed OR when a nice predictable ballistic drop is required over absolute range.

i bought 3 bags of .30 from jared long ago
i used them in the sl8
i said .28 by accident caz i just got them from u yesturday

Or like windy fucking unpredictable places like Rawdon!

As long as the tolerances are good and the price isnt astronomical I am most certainly in for .36

if the BBs are of nominal quality... then sure

What I meant was, just use what is available, it's vitually the same weight anyways (0.34g vs. 0.36g). Cannon balls would be cool though.

Well, if they ever ban airsoft guns outright, I have part of an APS2 action that I'll be transforming into a Brown Bess. At over 150 years old, as a replica of a flintlock (which are not considered firearms in Canada), I'll be good to go for Revolutionary War Airsoft.

That would actually be kinda cool to see.

I would pick up several bags of .36, I think it would be a perfect bb weight for my counter sniper M16. Because .30 are just not heavy enough....hopefully this poll helps.

Keep them coming info is great.

Yes, I'd take about $30-$40 of a .36 and .40. Enough for first impressions, practice, and some gaming. Calm days really don't exist here, .4 would be very nice for the times when .36 just isn't enough.

Edit: If they could be made to close to Maruzen SGM standards of variation, I'd never buy anything else.

the truth is im kinda disappointed. last summer i was under the impression that .34 or .36s were on there way and were supposed to make their appearance the past summer we just had. frankly, i would only use heavy weight bbs in special application rifles, such as the Kar98k or other BA rifles. for everything else (AEG, GBB) i would use only.28. That being said, if .3 were the price that they are now but for 2000 count instead of 1000, then i would probably use them in my AEG and GBB, but for now, their high price, and low volume make them special purpose only (kinda like match greade ammunition). Thus, heavy weights would be nice but only for SPR while the heaviest weight in 2000 count, my personally anyway, are used and will continue to be used, in everything else (AEG/GBB)

Practical Shooting
 

I've been using .3 in my GBB for CAPS .. I won't turn back .. the gun seems to like em... and they knock down poppers great.
For pistol range they are more accurate than lighter loads.

In the field I've been running .28 .. good leafcutters

I don't see a general need for anything heavier.. really

you are quite right in your general conclusion. but i respectively disagree. in high powers spring and gas rifles, heavy weight bbs will provide a flight path similar to match grade ammunition. in the Tanaka Kar98k. I have seen it shoot 377 with .3 bbs. now imagine how it would shoot with .34 or .36? it would be phenomenal! It would shoot straight, hard, accurate and cut down anything within its effective range. While i admit that the range would be cut down compared to say .3, the effectiveness in its new range would be higher than within the range of .3... if that makes sense.

That is why I said " general need" there is a specific need for higher weight ammo for the maybe 10% of shooters that run platforms that need it.. so its not really worth it for a supplier to stock this stuff in any quantity

ah i see. my bad :)

as for scarecrow, i understand he was having problem trying to obtain materials to make heavier bbs. that being said, why cant you use a small metal bb (1-3 mm in diameter), and coat around it in BB Bastard plastic and polish it. that way it will perform like regular bbs, but also be up to your standards?

I could see these heavier weights being produced in limited batches available on a pre-order basis, but not as a regularly stocked Bastard item. Given the current price/qty of the 0.30g product, one can't reasonably expect heavier weights to be any less costly. As a "match grade" ammo for special purpose weapons, the quantity used per buyer would also not approach anything near sustainable sales figures to justify keeping stock on hand.

Of those now asking for heavier weights, how many initially jumped for joy at the news of 0.30g being available? Of these, how many have purchased quantities approaching your purchase of other weights?

Personally, I've gone to 0.30g almost exclusively and I won't go back. I purchased 10 bags this season and have gone through almost half - that's about half the number of BBs I went through last season. Sure they cost more per BB, but with their brush penetration and the increased likelihood of targets calling hits sooner as bonuses to their extremely predictable flight path, I just don't need to shoot as much for the same effect (cover fire excepted). I could play over 40 games in a season and the ammo cost would *still* be exponentially less than paintball.

could my bb idea work? its hard to explain, so if my explanation doesn't make sense, i will try to reword it

NO... besides there is no need, getting a bb up to those weights should not require a metal core. simply adjusting the density of the plastic by adding higher density adjuncts to the composite will do it.

Making a sabot out of a metal core is likley not a good idea.

My concern would be the safety of using a metal ball inside the BB. Especially for those who use mesh masks. I dont use them personally but if the bb shatters on the mesh goggles, the metal ball would have a high probobility of going through. Also I imagine that since there are two completely different materials involved, it would be very difficult for the plastic coating to "stick" to the metal core, allowing for possible movement inside, throwing off ur accuracy and it would also make the BB's substantially prone to shattering. Not to mention the manufacturing costs for a setup capable of manufacturing those...

sounds good. i only offered it because scarecrow mentioned that the additives created a product that was scoured and pot-marked. definitely not up to his standards. i remember him saying.

when i say metal core, im referring to a VERY tiny one that is only used to increase the weight of the of bb. if the metal core is 2mm in diamter, there is still 2mm of plastic covering the core all around. currently, i have yet to hear about a BB Bastard BB shattering, though with the introduction of the metal core, it is possible i think

A 2mm core in a 6mm is a third of the BB - its relative size is no longer tiny. That aside, these BBs simply aren't made that way.

the fact is, people have been demanding heavy bastards for a long time but to this day, other than .3, i haven't see anything. that being said, im still going to be a loyal bastard through and through.

I would rather pay for black BB's in .25 or .28 over going heavier.

I apologize for the delay on offering the heavier product. It really is an engineering problem that needed careful study and experimentation.

Doing a core of different material is impractical from a manufacturing point of view - we just can't support a process like that. Also, I would hesitate to use any design that leaves any kind of strata within the product. My primary concern is for those people using mesh goggles and for potential for what happened with the biobbs last summer at Border Wars - the product needs to be shatterproof, or at least extremely shatter resistant for safety purposes. Seams or any kind of differentiate between materials creates a shatter risk. The materials we choose to use to increase weight must be compatible with the polish process, cost effective and consistently distributed within the slurry before forming.

I am getting some minimum ordering and pricing together. Hopefully it will be good enough that those who are considering using a product like this will preorder it. Unfortunately I don't have any samples, but I am assured it is consistent with the product quality you've experienced with .20, .25, .28 and .30, so I have no reason to disbelieve them.

+ 1

Also, I have no data that show the usefullness of a BB heavyer than 0.43g. in 6mm. Even if the 0.43g was made all metal, at the velocities we use, it would not be dangerous.

I'm down for some .36s for my toys...

Black would be nice ;)

Black BBs are overrated because unless you have your BB flight path memorized you can't always see what where your shots go. IMHO

+1

I take it you don't do real steel shooting?

It's not the velocity that is the issue with metal BBs, but rather the fact that they transfer a lot more of the kenetic energy to what ever they hit. Plastic flexes and chips upon impact, metal does not. Therefore there becomes a greater risk of cracking a set of goggles when you use metal BBs.

I'd like to see up to a 0.40 gram weight BB made with out metal, though again you'd have a limited market. Black or OD in all weights (0.25s, 0.28s, 0.30s, 0.36s, and 0.40s)...easier to track on bright days, or during those winter games.
But what ever you decide Jay, keep up the quality....there still the best BBs around in my opinion.

SHA DO

I have to data that show the difference in energie transfert of plastic vs metal BBs. It's logical, but still un-demonstrated. The only thing that come to mind, are the wild BBs used in some other country where they shattered windows due to their abnormal density. It's still unproven though.

no. not yet... dont get me wrong. i know that post made me sound ignorant. i apologize and i didn't mean to belittle your opinion in any way, shape or form. its just that with the inherent accuracy issues of airsoft, i dont quite see the usefulness of black bbs unless i know the flight path of my BB down to the T. that being said, i would rather pay more for heavy bbs than black bbs. sorry if i came across in a negative light.

Scarecrow have you thought of offering your bb's up on a more then canadian basis. I know the heavier weight bb's are slowly diminishing and people who use ba's are starting to get concerned.

isn't a heavy middle with a light softer outside how they make Armour piercing bullets? i know its unlikely but couldn't that potentially cause more damage if it strikes a hard surface, like the plastic body of some guns if the metal somehow punches thought the plastic?

That's what a scope or an RDS are for. I had no issues using the black MT .25's I bought for border wars.

I just mix black and white bbs together, 60/40 works alot better than straight black bb's

If I do go `international`(ie: Canada & US) I`ll use eBay to experiment first. The problem is BBs are heavy and shipping becomes progressively more expensive the greater distance you ship to the point where the customer won`t bear the cost anymore - so it becomes a local thing.

Now if you could ship them in bulk to say a supplier or someone like spartan imports in the us who handles most the stuff being brought in would that be more effective?

There's a few on the sniper crew that are in for .36 whites. I'm definitely in for some. The graphite coated bb's tend to foul the barrel.

I shoot .28 with my L96 and the performance is amazing

No, I`d never do rice bags. It brings up the opportunity to rebrand them and Ive put too much work into my brand.

Since people are bringing up black BBs, have you ever considered doing tracers? Specially in heavier than the typical .2g and preferably in red/orange.

Yeah, the market is too small - also, our manufacturing processes won`t work with the material you need to use for tracers - you can`t get the weight and densities you can - just doing it with the material we`ve settled on is hard enough. The problem is tracer material is inherently lighter and more brittle than the ABS plastic and additives we use. I don`t ever want to hear a report of someone losing an eye because one of my BBs shattered when then got hit with it. With tracers, thats a possibility.

Aww, back to dunking BBs in glow in the dark paint :P

Thanks for the info! :)

You dont have to do ricebag. They sell some of the normal brands of bb's. Just sell a large crate of packaged rounds. Its always worth looking into.

I mainly want to see the .3s sold in larger, less expensive quantities. They are an awesome product, but too expensive for that extra .02g over the .28s

I would also like to see a reasonably priced, high-quality heavy weight for BA use.
Cheers,
Grant

that's basically the consensus of everyone here i should think

That may very well be coming. Keep in mind my order was the first run and I`m amortizing an investment made to produce them. It will also depend on the cost of the new product. I will keep the package at 1000 count, but eventually yes it will come down. Also keep in mind what a package of TM .30`s are selling for, and other quality brands and Bastard .30`s aren`t that bad a deal in comparison. Problem is its a small market with significantly less volume than say .20 and .25 combined with higher cost - can`t be avoided. Doesn`t help that I bought my last batch based on everyone saying they want them, made them half the cost of the TMs and then when I got them in all I heard was crickets chirping and everyone ordering .20 and .25 - even the .28 product is down in volume compared to last year. I am not sure what to attribute it to, This is why I am hesitant to just order more product in higher weights and seeing if I can get a preorder together.

Except for the potential for more crickets when it arrives. I`ll probably do the preorder route. I`ll post pricing and arrangements for a preorder shortly.

can you give us a taste of what is to come? and will they be up to your normal standards of awesomeness?

Not until an order comes in naturally. I`ll probably order several bags for myself (obviously) but I am sure they will be good.

I personally go for the .28s as they are currently priced, when the local ass bastard chooses to stock them. I would be more tempted by the .3s if they were around $10/1000.

I think that if there were $10/500 or $7.50/250 sample bags of the heavier stuff then more people would be tempted to give them a wirl. Buying a good sized and expensive bag of heavies jsut to find they don't work particularly well in your gun is a bummer.
Cheers,
Grant

Even at $20 a bag for the .3 .. they are still cheap ammo ...

I want performance... I want leaf cutting twig splitting power... and the gradient between the cost of .2 and .3 is immaterial to me... if you have to quibble over the cost of "regular" VS "ultra" maybe staying in the basement is a better solution.

The bastard is a victim of his own success... $10 bags of BBs for excellent quality has spoiled the market for an up-priced better performing product.

The fact is these guns are still cheap to feed even at the price point that .3s are at today.

Most people commenting seem to be saying.. Sure I'd buy a top performing product.. if I can get it at the same price of the basic product.. This coupled with the fact the The Bastard has been left holding a lot of .3s already because all the talkers who convinced him to get them.. turned out to be nothing but talkers .. and won't pay for the product they asked for.

I CONCUR 100%

I think it's mainly the STEEP jump from .28 to .3 that keeps me away from them. I understand the technical changes required to make them, but they are over twice the price per BB.
As for cheap to feed; that is true but keeping ammo costs down allows for more of the other expensive aspects of the hobby to be indulged. If I was only looking at the bottom line I'd buy cases of .25g from overseas for rediculous prices (excell at $7.50/3000 comes to mind).

LOL...this is priceless. If we ever meet up at a game, remind me to give you the spare change in my car's ashtray so you can buy enough ammo for the game...

Anyway...back to the point. 0.30's are fine for me for now. I would like to try heavier...but probably not enough to make it worth your while to bring them in. I'd love to see some distance vs. accuracy tests with 0.30/0.32/0.36+ BBs (must go and Google now...)

Yes but the shipping would be more than the BB's. $150 to $200 for shipping a case of 20 or 25 comes to mind, to use your words.

I agree that this thread is not about my personal finances, airsoft is not a financial priority for me as it is for some. Yes the consumables are cheap, but that doesn't make them any less of an expense.

My opinion is that the .3s are too much for the performance increase.
I am also of the opinion that they are priced and packaged somewhere near the point of diminishing returns, IE: less people buying due to price is actually resulting in less overall profit.

As to getting cases from overseas: yes 25 bags works out to be similar in cost to Bastards when the shipping is calulated. But if your already buying parts and tag-on say 3-5 bags then you end-up fairly far ahead. I would still buy bastards though as I think they are a superior product.
Cheers,
Grant

I'd be in for a preforder on some heavier weights. Bought a few bags of .3's and absolutly love them! Would be nice for some heavier weights seeing I'm starting to run low on my .36's

i believe it was scarescrow or someone, who said that the performance difference between .34 and .36 are MINIMAL. that being said, it is no wonder sales of the .3 product are low. the minimal performance increase between .28 and .3 with cost and quantity factored in make it a loosing game i think. if .3s were dropped to make way, strictly for heavier weight, than great. now that being said, if .3s were cheaper to begin with, i would most likely buy them. but after i finish this batch of .25s, i plan on buying strictly .28s and using heavy bbs in my Kar98k only.

I am never one to quibble with reality and there is some truth to what you say here, but there is a perviso on that - each gun depending on the 'storm' of parts you put in it, will naturally have (I believe) a sweet weight and size that in many cases can't be predicted. Brian M.'s found .30's work really well with GBBs, the PTW crowd sees significant performance differences between .28 and .30 - don't forget, that .02 difference, along with a couple of other differences (yes, there are a couple) can make a world of difference *if* you're system is set up to take advantage of it - in most cases here, that happens by accident rather than by design.

The .34 and .40 differences I think will be startling and I don't think the non-upgraded crowd will want it (here I am knocking my own product). .28 from CDN_Stalker's tests and my own observations seems to be the sweetest you can get with non-upgraded and mildly upgraded guns - beyond .28 you need more power to get the same distances you would get with a lighter product - but when you do get the higher power you get better travel distance in a tighter grouping - but you have to design your system to get that effect. Shooting .30, .34 or .40 won't necessarily make a better shot unless your gun is designed for it.

I hear what you guys are saying about price but there is little I can do about the first batch of .30 - I may discount it and take a loss on it, but, as you can see other retailers are reluctant to stock the higher weights for precisely the same reasons I am suffering from right now.

Here, ponder this - from my point of view, why cannibalize my sales of .20 and .25 product (much less expensive to buy and ship for me) for a higher weight product, with higher cost to make less overall profit? For instance, $10 per bag of 1000 won't ever happen unless I am liquidating my stock because thats below my cost. You have to factor in more than just manufacturing and as some point out, shipping and customs, plus PST and GST eat up any discount you get when you buy direct from Asia. I have to do sea-container shipping, in quantities of 1000+ bags to make it worthwhile. Keep in mind unlike Jugglez, Illusion, and the various other guys here who peddle airstock (intentional misspelling) I focus primarily on BBs and nothing else - I don't offset my costs with the sales of springs or other such items. And with me having doing this since 2004, a lot of the airstock retailers are shying away from BBs because of me - I am scaled to do it profitably - if they are shipping 1kg from HK, why do it for a heavy bag of BBs when that same 1kg could be 30 springs at 50% markup, blowing away any profit I am making kilogram for kilogram. The only reason I don't do it is because I wouldn't know a spring if it bit me in the ass and customer support would suck - guys like Jugglez and Illusion can support the product way better and ultimately thats more important than the initial cost.

Anyways, I thought it would be worth sharing some of my logic with you on this so you can see that I've thought about these arguments quite a bit already.

Well said Jay....well said.

SHA DO

This is exactly why I like your products, you communicate exactly what is going on with the business and any problems your having with the products.
Although I may never use the .3s regularly I do love your .28s and will continue to use them for as long as they are the hot ticket.
Cheers,
Grant

+1


nice


but a sale is a sale??..

I've got .28 bb's made of perfectly rounded glass. Yes, glass!! And it does shoot through window panes. As for on the skin... it's worse than a welt... it's actually a bloody mess... but bad thing about it, you can't see who you're shooting... it's completely transparent... but it hurts like bloody fucking hell and there are people out there who deserve this kind of punishment. Why? Have you guys ever met a player who gets shot a lot but never admits it? We got plenty of those people here...
The heavies are nice, but i hear there coming out with the latest .35 glass bb's.

cool never heard of glass bb's before. but if u try to shoot glass bb's anywhr here u'll probably b expelled from playing airsoft in most places cause an incident like that would spead quick on asc. if one of those ever shattered in your skin or a broken shard knicked an artery your straight f*cked. if you are coming into canada i strongly suggest not ever using them here and if your already here i very very strongly suggest you stop.

You're an idiot. I can only assume this is a joke post because I can't believe someone would be this stupid.

no. i have seen these glas bbs on the internet. what make them so... unique is their ability to not only be reused, but also because they are seamless and bla bla bla. though even the company said not to shoot them at rocks because they can shatter.

Thats unbelievable. Glass?? I wouldn't use them at an airsoft game shooting at people, thats insane. Advice not to shoot them against rocks? What about outdoor gaming around hardened structures? Shatters and richochets?? My god, I can't believe someone would manufacture and sell that. Obviously they have no regard for the safety of the players being shot at.

wouldn't glass chip? why would you want to reuse glass bb's with the chance that there's a chip or a crack in it? chips would scratch up your barrel and destroy your hop up. small cracks will cause it to shatter on surfaces other than just rocks.

You can tell who hasn't played paintball and who has. I love it when people say 2000 BBs costing $10 is expensive - I remember when that bought you 20 paintballs...

very true scarecrow....

<grin> Way back in the day where you were outright *rich* if you had 200 rounds on you in a single day.

Shhh guy's your showing our age lol.

I was getting cases of paintballs this past year for $36/2000 rounds. Only ever played at BYOP fields. Yes I go PB'ing once in a while with friends. Primarily private group bookings only.

I remember when the Sgt Splatters was in Brampton. It works out paintball is 10¢ a shot. Airsoft at the time was 1¢. Try doing the SAW thing with a paintball gun.

you are right. in hindsight, none of your products are expensive, i was just commenting on the price to quantity ratio when comparing .28 to .30. in that effect, the .3s are pricy. though in the grand scheme of things, none of your products are especially when given the obvious quality of them.

I remember paintball back when getting another 100rnds was a huge deal, like "holy shit guys, he's gonna want to keep going until tomorrow". Heck I remember when semi's were the exception and stock-guns were still fielded regularly. When taking a shot was a total descision process starting with how early you wanted to quit.
I started airsoft because it's closer to the real-deal, but also a part of me recognized the cheapness of the ammo.
Performance is definately a major seller with the Bastards, less shots taken per hit makes for a cheaper day shooting. Which is why I'm feeding my AEG .28s along with pretty much everyone else around here. Actually I'm using .2s tonight but I don't forsee really long engagement ranges by moonlight.
Cheers,
Grant

Okay, after getting it up the poopchute by our exchange rate, I put a reorder in last week. In that reorder I've ordered 50 bags of .36gr and 50 of .40gr as a dry run. Since my experience with .30gr, I'll see what the demand is first before I do a bulk order. I'll make sure CDN_Stalker and Sha Do get some to give them a serious run around the block in testing to offer an opinion - if the product is shit, I don't want to carry it obviously. The bulk of my sales are low weight anyways, so it wouldn't hurt me much not to carry it, but I do recognize there are those here that exclusively use heavier weights, so, I'll do my best to ensure there is at least some local supply if these turn out to be a good item.

There should be enough time between now and spring to establish testing, get an opinion and look at the volume and have that supply available regularly starting the spring of 2009.

Good news. I can't wait to see the results.

what is happening with your .28g bbs and when can i expect them to be back in stock?

This next order has 500 bags of .28 coming in... no worries, you'll be rolling in them...