Legal FPS Limit -- I know. I know.
 

So, this discussion has come up hundreds of times in the history of airsoft, but locally here on Vancouver Island there is a group of players (now hosting 50+ people per game) who are constantly being educated about how if your gun is firing UNDER 366fps it's illegal to have in Canada.

It hurts my brain. Can anyone who speaks legal-eeze please give me a proper argument as to why forcing your gun higher and higher (some as high as 480fps play with this group, who now dominates the island play) is bad... just simply bad and dangerous, as well verify that in fact LOWER than 366 is NOT illegal.

Help, for my sanity and safety.

(Veterans are more than welcome to chime in)

Sorry if its in the wrong place, but every time someone asks how to lower the fps on their gun, the response ends up being "Don't lower it! Bring it up!"

Long version minus the pig latin:
criminal code is what governs the guns INSIDE CANADA
CBSA is what governs the guns coming INTO Canada; difference being they are not YET INSIDE CANADA. 366 fps is what is required to import, once you have it you can do w/e you want with it.

Read more here: http://airsoftcanada.com/showthread.php?t=166428&

tl;dr verison; non-enforceable law under peaceful circumstances :)

The CBSA memo about the importation of airsoft guns states that they "must shoot over 366fps with a .20 or else they *MIGHT* be considered a prohibited replica firearm."
The CBSA, the very source of the whole mess, states very clearly in plain writing that there isn't any certainty about it.

The RCMP, after learning about the CBSA's new policy, took it upon themselves to, through no actual legal process, put up a memo on their website bridging the import regulation into domestic ownership. Which, to date, they have never enforced anywhere, because they can't.

The canadian criminal code (AKA "the law") makes no mention what so ever of airsoft guns having minimum muzzle energies. Doesn't matter what the RCMP thinks is the law, if that law doesn't exist, then it doesn't exist.

-There's no minimum fps limit
-RCMP's website isn't going to hold up in the court of law
-multiple airsoft stores still sell guns under 350fps
-just about ever airsoft arena in canada has a limit under 350fps and they're not exactly well hidden secrets, some police and RCMP officers actually frequent some of them to play
-no judge is going to convict a person for tuning an airsoft gun below 366fps for the distinct purpose of REDUCING the chance of bodily harm to others

If they're being idiots, just point out the 2 major facts:
-A memo on the RCMP's website isn't legally binding
-Every airsoft arena in Canada openly operates under 366fps and is well known to police

If you own an Airsoft gun that follows all of these "ahem", guidelines, and it breaks, now shooting zero FPS, is it now a super-dangerous-illegal-killeveryone-replica?

Airsoft guns are legal for ownership and responsible use. Period. If I had a Mike, I'd drop him... Has anyone seen Mike?

I'm right here.

What group on the island is spouting this malarkey?

VFGPA for one. their rules state, and I quote, "Note: The MED classes begin at 1.24 Joules instead of 0 because of Canadian firearms regulations
around “replicas” vs uncontrolled firearms (air powered firearms below 5.7 Joules of muzzle energy). " I would bet Wolfpack is the same way cause the same guy runs them both, but I don't have access to their rules so... He also has been recently telling people in NAA the same thing..."under 366 is illegal"

Edit:
Oh, this is cute. dude I mentioned before got into an argument on the NAA fb page. he quoted that debunked rcmp memo as undeniable proof, and said everything else is "misinformation repeated so often it becomes gospel".

Pretty sure a bunch of us are arguing with one of the guys in question right now on ASC facebook lol

Sounds like someone got tired of getting spring changes to play indoors.

http://i.imgur.com/avHnbUZ.gif?noredirect

SHOW ME. SHOW ME THE STATUTE THAT SAYS THAT 366 FPS AIRSOFT BOOOOOOULET IS ILLEGALS

I DEFY him to find a single piece of case law and applicable legislature that sets the precedents of the enforcability of the 366 FPS rule as an arrestable offense based off of possession alone. I will FORTHWITH turn myself in along with all my "prohibited" firearms in a heartbeat.

Until LEO starts sending letters to airsoft businesses, selling guns under 366 and forcing people to downgrade under 366 to play indoors, there's really no reason for individuals to worry.
Not like RCMP is gonna roll up to an airsoft game and chrono everyone's pistols

Guns are owned under 366, guns are sold under 366, guns break and shoot under 366, the hop changes and it's now under 366, the temperature is too high or low and it's under 366, your gas reservoir runs low and it's under 366, you get shitty BBs or an air leak and it's under 366, "your mom" and it's under 366.

Can't fix stupid. That shit is permanent.

Wait people are complaining about others players guns firing to low of an FPS? What kind of backwards world are we living in?

RIGHT??? just silly

VFGPA is hosting solely on the premise of this singular individual. He is also an "elder" of Wolfpack. He not only claims that he has undeniable proof from the RCMP, he also adds almost as if a threat, that if your gun fires over 366 that it WILL cause you problems with law enforcement.

They also claim that joules has nothing to do with it, as your bb can't get up to velocity with .20gs so they chrono with .25s

See, I keep considering moving out of Ontario, then I hear shit like this. I thought we had stupidity in the ONTARIO Airsoft scene....

Tell him to take his Wolfpack "elder" status and shove it, he's wrong. Go look around, the RCMP documents are there, with dates and everything, that state the IMPORT requirments, which do not apply once IN COUNTRY.

This is almost as bad as the guy who told everyone they needed to have CA-17 engraved on their airsoft gun on Facebook because of a new law coming into effect June 1 2017.

I really wonder why people don't take the time to read this GS through fully.

Wait, what? So you're saying he's saying your gun must shoot EXACTLY 366 fps? If it's under it's illegal and if it's over it's illegal?

Also, somebody slap them upside the head and teach them some physics please. Joules are EVERYTHING to do with it; it's what all the legislation is based on. Anybody that says otherwise no longer holds the right to express their opinion on the matter as they clearly have no idea what they're talking about.

I'm going to chime in here and help put some perspective on this situation. My wife is an ex-cop, and two of my uncles were cops in the past. One of them now teaches at the police academy in Ontario, the other was the staff sergeant major for Alberta for a term (This means he looked after the entire province). This is a subject we have talked about a fair bit.

1. Most cop know nothing about airsoft legislation. This shit not like drug relate laws, its an extremely niche area in the law and it is really not worth there time to learn it. Cops only get 6 months of initial training, and "law" makes up a very small portion of that. As opposed to a lawyer, who have to go to school for a minimum for four years. Realistically, none of them are going to touch this, more info on this later.

2. http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/f...me_air-eng.htm This is not a valid source for information. This is the RCMP's interpretation of the law & regulations, and is not the firearms act. Just as an FYI, cops do not makes laws. So then why on earth do they make such bold claims if it's not law? Well to understand that you need to understand the RCMP. They always want to be able to delve into your personal life and privacy. They want to be able to search your home, cars, storage lockers etc. It allows them to find illegal activities, which in turn makes them look better.

3. No cop will ever touch this. There is no precedence set. As a cop, if you were to arrest someone and it goes to court, you have no back foot to stand on. As I mentioned above, they want more reasons to investigate your personal life, and if a court case goes bad this door will get closed. Part of there organizational culture is that they want more access to peoples life's, the cop who makes that harder is going to come under fire from his superiors. Also because there is no precedence, it means there is an insane amount of work that the officer has to put in, and they have better things to do. And on this subject, I personally know people who have had airsoft guns confiscated that shoot under 300 fps, they have all been returned to the individuals - this actually sets precedence in the opposite direction.

4. I've seen multiple people claim that they have called the CFP and that the CFP says guns under 366 fps are illegal. I don't doubt that they have called the CFP, and I promise you the CFP says it is illegal. It does not matter, they are still out to lunch. Again they have a culture in the RCMP were they want more to be illegal and not less, and again, there just simply is not enough legal backing for this statement within the firearms act & criminal code. Just to give you an idea of how cops function when it comes to this sort of stuff, most of my wife's co-workers had less then 50% of their charges stick.


People need to grow up. Cops are not legal experts. Stop talking to the RCMP and call a fucking lawyer.

Quoting for emphasis.

I looked away from airsoft on the island for a while and this is the shit that happens.

"This is a quote from my old post on the subject:

" He also understood that people who believe they are right will likely not take heed of the information I'm trying to pass along to keep our sport from falling afoul of the law and drawing the wrong kind of attention. He gave me the extension for direct access to the Technicians and said his office would be more then happy to answer questions if there is still doubt: 1-800-731-4000 Extension 1090.

Section 3 of this RCMP web page makes the language very clear"

*Please* do not assume the police will be understanding or on your side just because you were trying to use common sense should they decide to make an issue of something and *please* do not assume because a firearms owner is being hassled he must deserve it somehow. I can assure you from personal experience that is simply not the case. I've been shooting since the early '70s.

I urge you to call the number above and have a chat with a CFC tech rather then take my word for it.

This is a quote from my old post on the subject:

" He also understood that people who believe they are right will likely not take heed of the information I'm trying to pass along to keep our sport from falling afoul of the law and drawing the wrong kind of attention. He gave me the extension for direct access to the Technicians and said his office would be more then happy to answer questions if there is still doubt: 1-800-731-4000 Extension 1090.

Section 3 of this RCMP web page makes the language very clear"

*Please* do not assume the police will be understanding or on your side just because you were trying to use common sense should they decide to make an issue of something and *please* do not assume because a firearms owner is being hassled he must deserve it somehow. I can assure you from personal experience that is simply not the case. I've been shooting since the early '70s.

I urge you to call the number above and have a chat with a CFC tech rather then take my word for it.

https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%...rK6kEEmU6tKNID "

This was in response to Janus trying to re-educate him.

Other parts of this conversation:
"For Andy's benefit, the reason we measure with .25g or heavier BBs is owing to a mechanical design issue with shorter barreled airsoft guns. We want to get a true maximum reading so the guns are placed in the correct MED class. Many out of the box carbines (M4, etc), & even shorter barreled guns, do not develop their maximum muzzle energy with .20g BBs.

The easiest way I think I can explain this is because it takes the back pressure caused by the heavier BB to consume the full capacity of air the piston in the gearbox can generate. Essentially the lighter BB literally "blows" out the barrel with ease and wastes some of the capacity of the gearbox. When heavier BBs are used more / all of that potential is used. Most techs know this and we've confirmed this with several different stock guns. It's a very repeatable result. We'd actually opt for .30 BBs as our standard but most of the players we see use .25s or .28s.

As I said, it's a simple enough method to accurately measure, once you know the various relationships between all the parts."

It's a shame that this is the case considering if he's left with the assumption he's right, not only is he educating hundreds to make their guns shoot 400+ with 25s/28s/30s, but he's now becoming the only group for airsoft on the island based on his "play for free" narrative.

Their max fps would be 357fps on .25s to maintain 1.48j
So if the limit is 400 on .25s, they're at 1.85j

Who is "he"?

When someone is pumping bad information out like a firehose it's useful to name names.

"I called the CFC again this morning for additional information. The technician gave me permission to share his letter which I've copied below. He also confirmed they did indeed do tests with pig's eyes to determine at what level an airsoft gun was capable of "causing serious bodily harm" and therefore were firearms under the CC. That is where the 366fps come from and is the distinguishing point between two similar looking devices: one is a prohibited replica and one is an unregulated firearm.

"Good Afternoon,

in reference to our earlier discussion:

Airsoft, BB/Pellet, and paintball guns have 3 possible classifications.
1. “Exempt” firearm. An Exempt firearm is one which meets the CC 2 firearm definition, however does not require licensing or registration in accordance with CC 84(3) (d).
2. CC 2 “Firearm”. Which refers to a firearm which meets the CC 2 firearm definition, however does not meet the CC 84(3) (d) exemption.
3. Replica Firearm. Which does not meet the CC2 definition, and is therefore a prohibited device in Canada.
Brief Explanation
CC 2 "firearm" States:
“ "firearm" means a barrelled weapon from which any shot, bullet or other projectile can be discharged and that is capable of causing serious bodily injury or death to a person, and includes any frame or receiver of such a barrelled weapon and anything that can be adapted for use as a firearm; ”
Any airsoft product capable of achieving a velocity of (current standard) 366 fps with a 6mm, 0.20 gm pellet is capable of causing serious bodily injury to a person, and therefore qualifies as a CC 2 “Firearm”. As such, these airsoft guns are in fact firearms.
These numbers were arrived at through Laboratory testing to determine at which point the projectile would most likely puncture a human eye.
Now, to further complicate the issue:
CC 84(3) (d) States:
“(3) For the purposes of sections 91 to 95, 99 to 101, 103 to 107 and 117.03 of this Act and the provisions of the Firearms Act, the following weapons are deemed not to be firearms:
(d) any other barrelled weapon, where it is proved that the weapon is not designed or adapted to discharge
(i) a shot, bullet or other projectile at a muzzle velocity exceeding 152.4 m per second or at a muzzle energy exceeding 5.7 Joules, or
(ii) a shot, bullet or other projectile that is designed or adapted to attain a velocity exceeding 152.4 m per second or an energy exceeding 5.7 Joules.”

Sections 91-95, Deal with firearms licensing and registration requirements.
Sections 99-101, Deal with weapons trafficking offences.
Sections 103-107, Deal with Illegal Importation of firearms (i.e. import without a license).
Section 117.03; Deals with the failure to produce a proper license when required.

In essence, any “firearm” which propels a projectile at a muzzle velocity greater than 152.4 m/s (500fps) with a muzzle energy exceeding 5.7 J must be registered, and requires a PAL (Possession and Acquisition License) to obtain. As many of these airsoft guns, paintball guns, and some bb and pellet guns do not meet the velocity or muzzle energy requirements to require registration or licensing of the owner. They are accorded the “exempt firearm” status as in exempt from licensing and registration.

Replica Firearms:
A replica firearm, quite simply does not meet the CC2 definition of a firearm, however may look and feel identical to a known firearm. In other words to be prohibited as a replica firearm, a device must closely resemble an existing make and model of firearm, yet by design be unable to discharge a projectile which is capable of causing severe bodily injury or death.

Hope this Helps,
Mike

Michael Bartlett
Firearms Technologist
Specialized Firearms Support Services (SFSS)
Ottawa Ontario K1A 0R2

Tel: 1-800-731-4000 (ext . 1090)
Fax: 613-993-5548""

Government logic: It DOESN'T cause seriously bodily harm, therefore it should be prohibited

Hahaha right? I had just read that post before breakfast and now that I had a bite to eat, a moment of clarity, and a second read, that doesn't make sense to me.

Well before airsoft was a thing, the replica law in Canada was. So immediately Airsoft guns would've fallen into that category and I guess did for a time. Instead of removing the replica law and rewriting out firearms laws so that they made sense in modern times, they came up with a quick way to classify airsoft guns differently. This provided two conveniences; for starters they are no longer replicas and are allowed to exist here legally, and if a crime is committed with one they already have criminal codes in place. It wasn't a super proactive approach as much as reactive, but at least Airsoft flourished, instead of the alternative, which is either no Airsoft, or guns that don't look anything like real guns.

I would like to understand
speaking french dont help me with all theses "complicated" new laws

I would like to understand if i can import this unit safely or i will have trouble from customs ??

G&P M16a3 (390 FPS !! , well over the 366 Canada requirements)
https://shop.ehobbyasia.com/gandp-m1...rsoft-aeg.html

Please people , let me know your toughts about it

You can't import it because it's out of stock :P

But seriously, a gun above 366fps should be okay HOWEVER, be careful about "shop upgrades:" customs usually refers to the manufacturer's published rating as a reference; the gun you linked appears to be "tuned" by EHobby. This can be problematic.

Unfortunately Customs isn't black and white, one agent may let something pass and another would stop it. Its then up to you to make the case and prove it's legal. This can also happen with a gun that is over 366fps which should be perfectly legal to import.

A perfect example of this is a recent "revision" of rules surrounding folding knives: CBSA has now "decided" that any folding knife with a thumb assist and/or which can be opened with a flick of the wrist (i.e., the vast majority of folding knives) are now considered the same as an automatic knife (spring assisted, etc) and therefor illegal to import. This is the same pocket knives sold at Canadian Tire, Walmart and LaCordée for decades.

So just because something is legal to import doesn't guarantee customs won't try challenging you on it. That's the burden of importing.

Wow, this is a necro thread... but it does remind me of a question I have regarding FPS vs. Joules limits in Canada. It states that for them to be legal an airsoft/airgun must shoot EITHER below 152.4m/s (500fps) or 5.7J.

If, for example, I game with .50g BBs and keep the FPS below 496fps (just under 5.7J with this weight), is it legal? If they were to take my gun and chrono it would they use the BBs I was using, or their own (lower weight which would cause it to go above the 500FPS legal limit but still be under 5.7J)?

i bought a TM breacher shotgun from a store and it came with this sticker on it; they tried to cover it up with sharpie.

This exactly what I was looking for. Thank you