Tsd l96 Sniper rifle?
 

So ive already got a jg m16 that i enjoy quite a bit and was thinking about upgrading it and making it better. Someone i know is selling there tsd l96 sniper with and upgraded plastic trigger box to a metal one and also an upgraded bolt. comes with a bipod and 3-9x40 scope.

Now i posted before wanting a sniper and alot of people ripped me apart saying how a sniper is a bad choice for a first gun, without putting a ton of money into a good starter sniper. But im really thinking about picking this up for $250.

Are they really not worth getting unless you put a ton of money into them?
Whats your opinion on the gun?

how about you get age verified and buy a TM instead?

Lol I see nothing's changed, carry on

First: It's a sniper RIFLE (a sniper is a person)

Second: TSD is a cheap chinese Knock off and, even with an upgraded trigger box, will be out performed by many AEGs.

Third: 250$ for a use TSD that probably has a 50$ trigger box is too high, it's not a deal.

Yes that stuff. Read one of the hundred other threads on sniper rifles on here tho alot of them will be about vsr10's and their clones all the same stuff applies.
Im about sic of replyin to these "i wanna be an uber leet sniper" threads

Welcome to the club!

We should have t-shirts made.

http://honda-tech.com/attachment.php...0&d=1352817866
Like this?
http://joestaff.net/files/images/misc/SpoonFeed.png
Or this maybe lol

I like this one

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/c...on-feedMVT.jpg


Ok, this one was harsh...(but you got to admit it's funny)

You really need to read, there is tons of thread about the L96 and its clones. There's a new one every week (sometimes everyday). And when we say "Don't get a sniper rifle as your first gun" we don't mean "get one as soon as you bought your first AEG". You should play a few games and see what's out there.

To put it short.

A stock, clone, peice of shit sniper rifle will never hold up in a game.

250 isn't an investment, its being cheap.

Get an AEG, accuracy through volume will benefit you more than a rifle that can't hold compression worth a damn.

Lol
Or the cod one "wants to be a sniper, runs around map using seccondary weapon" lol

The role of a person running a bolt action is not as glorious as it seems. Often it can be amazingly slow paced and sometimes boring, well as boring as you are willing to make it. It can be equally fun and exciting if you let it.

Perhaps contact this person who is selling said rifle and maybe toss them 25 dollars to "rent it out" for a game to see if you like the play style. At least that way you will know if its something that you will enjoy or even use, before committing to something only to have it rot away in your closet in the basement untouched and unloved....much like that tread mill I bought that sits collecting dust in the corner of my basement.

The play style is considerably different, you have to be incredibly adaptive and observant. You will have slightly more range on your targets than some however with upgrades these days you could very well be just as equally matched or even outmatched by someone with an AEG or bolt action. The airsoft gun itself is only a part of the equation. Although it does factor significantly. A lower end product may not perform as well and you may not find it as aesthetically pleasing due to its lower tolerances in comparison to a higher end product. This differences could leave a sour taste in your mouth.

At $250.00CAD that seems a like a minor commitment ( it could be extravagant or modest. I have no idea what your income is), although it does have upgrades. Although you didnt state the brand of upgrades so I cannot comment on that.

One things for certain though, you draw fire like you wouldnt believe. Most people perceive people with bolt action rifles to be a threat. You will get peppered, it will suck...a lot. That is part of the game though.

To summarize my long winded post. Try it, then buy it, but only if you like it.

You'll be outmatched by someone tossing BBs at you :P
Usually can't engage within 100ft and too inaccurate for greater distances.

Oh my god!

It's alive...We all thought you were dead in a Bangkok gutter or something.

Some people make me wonder. A cheap gun shooting at 450fps with the hop up tuned correctly, will shoot just as far as an expensive tm rifle at the same speed. There guns don't deny the laws of physics! There the same guys that will tell you that there 2000$ guns are the best thing they have ever bought. And everything else is a p.o.s.

R
Let me rewrite that for you

A shitty cheap gun filled with shitty cheap parts, including shitty hop up will NOT shoot as far or as accurately as a correctly tuned TM compatible rifle with the correct upgrades.

Do not give out bullshit information.

I have a 270$ cheap Mauser sr22. I installed a 6.03 tight bore and a marui hop up and it shoots as far as any other sniper with the same fps.

Quattro you might want to edit your post this isn't the AV section.

Thank you

well that is because you upgraded it, pretty sure that the OP ask for a cheap springer that preforms well without upgrades, so stock shitty pieces inside

Geez, you do a little blow and your heart stops and people declare you legally dead for 3 minutes. Best Bangkok gogo dancer bar ever, had all you could eat curry.

I do agree with you on some parts. I would like to present the Echo 1 M28 platform as an example for my thoughts in regards to your statement. While it does perform admirably, its internals leave a little bit to be desired for. The internals Im referring to in question actually have nothing to do with the FPS at all, more so in the mechanics. Running the M28 stock with a high FPS will wear down the piston/sear set very quickly leading to slam fires. Upgrade parts are available but they are costly and somewhat rarer than usual do to the proprietary piston. However, with a classic army M24 you could throw a heavier spring in there and use it without too much worry in regards to heavy wear.

Externally speaking the feel of both platforms is fantastic, good weight, finish and all that jazz. When stacked against a lower end VSR you can really feel and physically see the differences in quality.

Yeah, but that happens to you so many times that we never know which one will be the last.

I do have a tsd l96 myself, but the only stock part left is the main body and cylinder + bolt handle and end cap. Everything else has been upgraded.

No real expensive upgrades besides the pdi hop-up chamber which is the most crucial part.

The upgrade that you are mentionning above are not significant upgrades and will not change the performance of your rifle. I have the metal trigger assembly on mine too, it is good to have but will not give you a better performing bolt.

You do not need to dump alot of money on your bolt to make it a good bolt, get a good 6.03, 6.05 TB barrel (madbull are enough, no need to pay more than that) the pdi-hop up chamber is a must and will make a big impact on the performance of your gun, good hop-up rubber like the pdi w, plus a piston and piston head from modify (look at airsoftparts.ca) and you are all set (a good scope like the Bushnell trophy series with a good eye relief is a must too). I have this set-up and the number of kills that I have racked up with that bolt is impressive to say the least (lots of people can testify to that on this forum)

No need for expensive pdi and laylax upgrades all the way. But you need to invest a minimum. My stock tsd l96 was less accurate than a pistol at 60-70 feet, it was utter garbage. If you get a clone you need to upgrade it right away, no choice. If you get an original one you can keep the stock configuration for a little longer.

Bottom line, if you were thinking of buying that bolt action and not do any upgrades to it, well your throwing your money away, simple as that. You will have no fun, and you will get owned/countersniped against everything save a springer pistol! :(

As long as I have fist full of adderal and a water bottle full of midori and vodka Im good to go....at least until I wake up in a dumpster wearing some other persons clothing, covered in only what I can conceive to be hobo semen and glitter. Thats only ever happened twice, anyone else who says other wise is a dirty liar.

FPS is not the standard used to determine range.
It's proven fact that because of varying quality of internals, a 360fps aeg can out range a 470fps sniper rifle.

The problem with everyone wanting to be a sniper is not neccesarilly the platform, but the person.
Do you have any idea how incredibly useless most snipers are in airsoft?
Its one of those things you can't be good at unless you're REALLY good at it. Everyone else just makes for easy targets.

Most nubs want to be snipers because they're afraid of getting shot, they haven't been shot before so they think it'll hurt more than it does, that's why they all want to "buy a sniper"

ITT: Assumptions and accusations; assumptions and accusations everywhere

Maybe most.. I played first with borrowed AEG's and decided it wasnt for me. Picked up a CA M24 and have LOVED it ever since. Mind you, nothing in it is stock now and I am about $6-700 into the build. I am usually right there with the rest of the team fighting the fight. Still learning the "roll" but having a good time getting good hits, etc.

Have you ever actually PLAYED airsoft?
What you said makes NO sense and is simply disinformation.

:O so why not explain to me how a cheaper gun shooting 450fps with a properly tuned hop up (30$) and a 6.03. Tightbore(25$) will not have the same distance as a very expensive gun???
Does a 30$ cilinder head put extra pixxy dust on the 6mm bb?

And do I play airsoft? No... I used to play with Lego and silly putty, I do milsim.

Having built guns both on clone and quality platforms, there is certainly a difference.

TSD VSR-10's cylinder dimensions vary, some are tighter, some are loose. For the life of me I could not get a proper or consistent compression from the gun using the stock cylinder or hopup unit. You will get 'reasonable' accuracy, but nothing that an AEG can't do without similar upgrading. It makes the rifle somewhat redundant. And for the price of upgrading to a better cylinder, you would have spent enough to have just bought a proper base gun in the first place.

I'm currently in the middle of building a proper, TM based VSR with laylax internals. I'm just waiting on my tightbore to arrive. I'm still using the stock cylinder and hopup unit with everything else properly upgraded, installed and tuned. The accuracy and range i'm getting out of this is a lot more satisfying than the equivalent on a TSD base. No problems at all.

Consistency out of a rifle is very important. I want to be sure when I pull that trigger, that the BB will go where I want it. No fliers, nothing else.

Using a TSD, if you plan on replacing 'EVERYTHING' is alright. But I'll find clone guns, stock aside from minor fixes to be lacking.

Because you don't understand the physics.
There's more to it than just FPS, BB weight and hop rubber. Having constant air pressure and laminar flow behind the BB are critical to having good accuracy.

If you took and M4 with a good barrel and hop rubber and tested it with 2 different mechboxes, one fully upgraded and tuned, and one cheap chinese clone, both shooting 400fps, you'd note the tuned one has better and more consistent performance.

Why do you think people spend $2500 on PTW's?? It's because the internals are more precise, and higher quality. That's how they get their performance.
By your thinking, I could spend $450 on a KA M4 and have it shoot as well as a finely tuned $1300 AEG or $2500 PTW

Is it possible to achieve great performance with a stock rifle, new barrel & hop? Yes. Yes it is.
Does it happen often? Absolutely not.
Once you achieve all requirements to make a good shot, they're met. And upgrading the gun simply won't make a difference.
At that point upgrading is about reliability more than performance.

At one point the average range of an AEG here was 80ft, and that was good for us. We just has no idea it was physically possible to send a BB out to 240+ft.
Now that we understand the physics behind it, the average range is around 180ft, with some guns shooting further still

hehehe I love how he snuck in tightbore to bolster his argument

i pretty much pointed that out, he puts out his upgraded rifle while the OP have asked for "is this TSD rifle good without upgrades?" or along the lines of the same

Someone stated above that a tsd rifle wouldn't last even a game before breaking and that its imitation garbadge...... I stated that with a new inner barrel and hop up the gun will shoot as far as a very expensive rifle shooting the same fps.
And I'm not wrong. Sure mabe with you're 700$ rifle the consistency of shot after shot will be slightly improved but a bb traveling at the same fps will shoot just as far.

Just because you bought a BMW doesn't mean it's faster than a Pontiac.

yeah a pontiac with a nos system built in, you haven't seen the new BMW, have you? a better analogy is when i put a ferrari engine in a honda civic, it will magically turn into a ferrari... not even
the logic is that you can't change the physical make up of certain item by placing a new and better part to replace the part inside, it is still the same as to before you have modified it
what quacks like a duck and looks like a duck, you are most likely looking a duck

Quattro, Have you used a properly upgraded BA sniper rifle before? Its hard to argue a point when it appears you haven't used much beyond what you've owned.

No, it won't necessarily travel as far.
Because many of us have seen 360fps guns out range 470fps guns.
100fps is not, by any means, a small difference.
And a hop-modded PTW will always have better accuracy than a fully upgraded AEG. That specifically has to do with how the air nozzle functions.

I've personally seen a stock (reshimmed) G&P M16A3 go through at least 300,000 rounds of heavy abuse without failing internally. But I don't go telling people to buy G&P because it CAN last tens of thousands of rounds stock. On average, G&P's typically don't last more than a game if they're not shimmed out of the box, and the pistons tend to fail in less than a season.
I've seen upgraded G&P's that shot like lasers, and upgraded G&Ps that have horrible demon problems and never shoot right.
And particularly when it comes to sniper rifles, there's a lot of people in the past who have tried to upgrade inexpensive clone rifles, and could just never produce the performance of the brand name rifles because of tolerance problems in the main components.

So just because YOUR tsd shoots really good, doesn't mean EVERY tsd is going to shoot good. And the collective experience of the members here state that TSD in general is not very good.
So is it possible for a $200 rifle, with a $20 hop rubber and $100 barrel to shoot as good as a $900 upgraded marui VSR-10? Yes
But the chance you take with a cheaper rifle is that it will be a demon gun that can never reach that kind of performance.
(I recall having this exact same argument with a dozen noobs when chinasoft AEG's hit the market lol)

It also seems that your argument is based on your one rifle. How many clone guns have you upgraded to shoot great? And what is your basis of comparison to say they are shooting great?
Don't feel that I'm attacking your credibility, my interest is to teach & inform, not to point and laugh.

Like I said, back in the day the average range here was like 80ft. So "great range" to us 6 years ago was only 120ft lol

It seems also that clones VSR-10 are worse then clone type/L96 like TSD and Well in terms of performance after upgrades, I know quite a lot of people with upgraded Well L96 that have nothing to envy to a Maruzen.

The main reason for me in going with a clone rifle was that, even with a genuine Maruzen Type 96, I would have upgraded all the internals anyways.

My Tsd/Well L96 cost me 125$ brand new, ordered from Evike. All the upgrades costed me 300$. So final price was with shipping and all, around 480$. At that price I would have had only a stock Maruzen.

To me it made no sense at all in having spent 480$ in a stock Maruzen and paying another 300$ for the upgrdades. When I knew that the only difference was the body (albeit of better quality that of the Well, but not enough to justify the 330$ price increase.) Anyway in the end, the only thing left from the clone would have been the bolt handle, and the cylinder. The Maruzen stock parts regrding those 2 things are not better than a clone one.

I had also another friend who had a maruzen with some upgrades (not fully upgraded), raising it's cost of acquisition to 600$. It was not even comparable in terms of reliability, range and accuracy to my TSD L96 fully upgraded for $480.

It seems also that there is people that I have met or read on this forum, that they are just pissed. They have spent 850$ on a rifle that is not shooting better than a fully upgraded clone (talking about L96 clones here I have no experience with VSR-10 clones) and would have costed them a fraction of the price. They keep on bashing that Well L96 are utter garbage bla bla bla, that they have bought the real deal and that is the way to go bla bla bla. I was seeing alot of that back 3 years ago on this forum...

You know what...I told myself screw them...I am replacing everything anyway, I would be dumb to pay for the real deal, if I am not keeping any original internal parts. Never regretted my decision and if my L96 break one day I am gonna buy another Well L96 and transfer all the upgraded parts in the new one. But so far that sniper is a killing machine!

if you go clone, you upgrade everything internally or you go home. There is no in between, clones in their stock form are simply a waste of money.

Distance and FPS are relatively easy to attain out of a 6mm BB. Hell, I'll bet I can out shoot a BA with a sling shot. Can you get lucky and attain the same accuracy out of a complete piece of shit like any TSD gun? Yes you can. Will this anomaly last? No, not likely. Quality, engineering, functionality, reliability etc, always play a part when seriously looking into buying an airsoft platform. Are you playing three times a year with your friends and their cheap, clear-soft, craptacular guns? Then a TSD sniper might be worth your time, but you'll like end up buying a cheap, clear-soft gun for that added reliability and fun factor. Are you wanting to play competitively against players who spend their money on precision instruments, training platforms, and all the high quality upgrades? Then you'll need to follow suit as well.

I've seen the following in person; that one off crappy Chinese clone preforming uncharacteristically well, but will eventually explode because it's cheap crap. I've also seen the clone that was so upgraded that there was almost nothing clone left on it. Sadly either gun never truly reaches the potential of the real thing, and people should never suggest going down this path just so they feel like they are the only idiots who did, and either got lucky, or more likely are lying and/or completely oblivious to what their guns can actually do.

There is a good path for you despite all this. The Classic Army M24 is a decent substitute to the Marui VSR or Maruzen APS-II platforms, and can be found in the $300.00-ish range (give or take) within Canada. However it is still a sniper platform, and will take extra money to properlly upgrade, maintain, and tune to keep it field worthy, often in the hundreds of dollars or more. If you get age verified, we'll even tell you where to get one, and there is likely a thread on how to upgrade it properlly.

Just don't end up one of those guys with a TSD and a tight-bore, aiming your gun into the air at a 45•, and claiming it shoots as far as a properly tuned Marui, when the real thing can pick off coins at distance.


By the way, even with a high end and properly upgraded sniper rifle 99.9% of new players find it boring and extremely frusterating, and end up selling their sniper for a loss. About 40% of those are so turned off after, they end up quitting airsoft all together.

I'd wanna see this. Get one guy to grab his PDW and shoot a target 5 times 100YDs away and then get a cheap springer with some ups and do the same.

If the springer or a lower quality AEG can hit the target with near same accuracy as the PDW, then whatever. I know about all this mechanical stuff with tolerances and machining and quality of the parts etc.

But when it comes down to it performance is what matters, if Quattro can hit a target with the same accuracy after spending 300 compared to a guy using a 1500$ plus upgraded AEG why not! This is the consumers market, some guy from china makes me something at half price from what I would normally pay I owe it to my bank account to at least look into it.

That's what people do, I know the whole but cheap buy twice stuff, but I've bought everything I have pretty cheap, and I have yet to buy twice, because I do my research and get lucky not to get a lemon!!!

Exactly the kind of answer that I used to see...This was obviously aimed at what I wrote, exactly the kind of reply that I was talking about and you fell right in the stereotype, proning that only original gun are good and clones even upgraded are utter garbage.

So from what you say, clones are crap and no matter what, it will explode one day and it is only good for those who play 3 times in a year. Well...got some news for you, my TSD I have it since more than 3 years going on 4 and I have played a good 30 games in all kind of weather conditions with it, still going strong and we are far from 3 games a year.

I am not someone who's particularly found on clones. Actually the only clones I have are my tsd and my tri shot shottie (marui clone) the rest are Marui pistols, so I am far from the guy who only buy cheap stuff.

What baffles me, is that you are mentionning that even if you replace everything in a clone by upgrading it with parts like PDI, Laylax, Modify and what not, it is impossible that you get the same accuracy and range as the real deal?

So the outershell of your original Maruzen Type 96 will help you get a better gun and a Well L96 will never be able to achieve the same results because of it's outer shell and bolt handle and cylinder?

For me I prefer having the 300-400$ difference in my bank account than in an original rifle that has the same exact upgrade parts that I have in my clone.

Lastly, I am not oblivious to what my rifle can do, I perfectly know what it can do and I compare it to original Marui and Maruzen rifle of other fellow airsoft player. And for the liar part, well post in the Quebec team section and ask what my rifle can do, if I am lying or not and if I have to aim at 45 degree to outrange a Marui rifle. Go ahead you'll see!

If you want to pay the big bucks and you have the budget or your prority in life allows you to do it go ahead, it is just not true that only original rifle will be able to perform well, even when you have upgraded almost everything in your clone a thing that you will do anyway on the original rifle. For me it gives me the same and even better results than with an original rifle at the fraction of the cost. I am sure if it works for me it can work for other airsoft player and I know that it does the job for other players too.

Let people choose simple as that!

Riiiiiiiiiiiiigggghhhhttttttttt

Feel free to waggle your e-weenis around while trying to differentiate 'airsoft' from 'milsim'...

Try doing this with a clone rifle.
THE EXTREME SHOOTER 2012 第二競æÅ*€"Through The Hole" - YouTube

Whatever guys, my stock loading-rod with a new hop-up and TB will out-perform your PTWs any day.

Let's all agree that you can upgrade a clone to game, but you need something else then a metal trigger group to do a half-decent job.

And don't expect to be the best thing that came to airsoft sniping with that thing.

If you're changing the barrel and receiver on a given VSR-10, why bother buying the whole gun in the first place? You just replaced 9/10s of it lol
Better off just buying all the parts separate and a stock, since by the time you're done upgrading the everything, you'll be able to build a functional stock gun by the time you're done lol

The reason WHY you get a marui VSR-10, is because you don't have to change the barrel, hop chamber, and receiver. And you're guaranteed that they are precision spec.

Whereas if you buy a clone, you're NOT guaranteed that one clone is equal to a marui, you're not even guaranteed that one clone is equal to another of the same brand. That's where the manufacturer is saving money, and that's where you're taking a gamble.

It's not a matter of it CAN'T be good, it's a matter of it's NOT OFTEN good.
There's a few examples of inexpensive clones that shoot really good, there's lots of examples of inexpensive clones that are just okay, and there's many of examples of inexpensive clones that are just a huge pain in the ass.

I'm not made of money, why the hell would I spend $2500 on a PTW if it were possible to make a $300 gun shoot just as good for $400 worth of internals??
It's extremely rare to make a $600 gun shoot just as good lol

Re. the ultimate end results...yes, you stand a chance at upgrading a clone to perform 1) better than other stock airsoft guns, 2) better than it started out as, 3) as good as a upgraded "good" airsoft gun.

The crux of why so many people (myself included) say "don't start with a low end clone" is that the deck is usually stacked against you to do so and end up with result #3. If you expectations are #1 or #2...then have at it, you're likely to be successful to some degree.

If you're scratch building something that cannot be made from a base gun (i.e. you want that triangular barrel with that octagon receiver and that comp set trigger on a uber rare stock and you're going to pick that PDI hopup/barrel/piston/cylinder set anyways)....the scratch build it or start with whatever base gives you the best of the remaining parts you're going to need (pretty much just the bipod and sling studs at that point...LOL).

When dealing with clones and copies of clones you tend to deal with parts that are off center, thinner, oddly spec'd....in addition to the parts being made of cheaper materials (in general). There's no correcting a skewed/oddly threaded receiver and still use the other commercially available outer barrels. Weird fitment issues such as the receiver being too thick to position a Zero trigger properly can/may be fixed by filing/grinding areas. Other issues such as an upgrade cylinder not fitting in the receiver spacers can be a pain. Alignment and dimension issues where the stock/upgrade cylinder tip may not be positioned properly with the stock/upgrade hopup unit to create a good seal can drive guys nuts.....and due to the usually very expensive BA upgrade prices it's usually a bitter pill to swallow.

Although the same thing goes with AEG clones...their overall quality/consistency has improved.

The potential headaches and struggles of upgrading a clone BA is usually why people recommend not doing it.

^
This!

A very good point is that weird one off gun that apparently shocks the world. Ive seen dozens of Well, TSD, Mauser, etc, upgraded guns that their owners claimed would go toe to toe with one if the proven systems, but personally I have yet to see one that actually did. I wasn't saying it's not possible, but shame on you for recommending it as a good alternative. If you are lucky enough to have that bizarre one in a million that does the job, then tell them you have that; the likelyhood of your results being replicated is so low. As mentioned above, it's possible but highly unlikely. I've also seen this numerous times; players that bought a Well for instance, and upgrades it fully with PDI, Laylax, etc, and got no where near the same results because the receiver or stock was a little out due it being a cheap clone.

To be perfectly honest, it takes some skill and experience to properly airsoft snipe. If your playing competative or high end airsoft, then even a Marui VSR fully upgraded, and properly tuned may not be enough. Snipers should be discouraged, especially from buying a cheap platform. Guys like Thundercactus, CDN Stalker, etc, are the ones to listen to. They are known as great snipers for their skill, and weapon knowledge; not because they tried to save a buck, or claimed irresponsible things.

Ok i guess il just upgrade my jg m16 or use it till its dead.